Donny McCaslin: From Stadium Jazz to Lost Lullabies
The saxophonist behind David Bowie's 'Blackstar' discusses ‘Lullaby for the Lost’, his genre-defying new album, creative partnerships with Tim Lefebvre and David Fridmann, and finding artistic authenticity through controlled chaos.
Today, the Spotlight shines on saxophonist Donny McCaslin.
Donny’s new album, Lullaby for the Lost, arrives September 26th on Edition Records, and what a record it is. It’s Donny’s saxophone with guitar-driven rock energy, drawing from influences like Neil Young and Nine Inch Nails, resulting in what Donny calls his most personal music to date.
You might know Donny from his pivotal role on David Bowie’s final album ★ (pronounced Blackstar). His latest work demonstrates what may have drawn Bowie to him in the first place: an artist always willing to push into uncharted territory.
Donny is also bringing the Blackstar Symphony to stages across the US and Europe, reimagining Bowie’s masterwork with a full orchestra.
I previously spoke with Donny in January 2022 in front of a live audience in New York City. That conversation, which goes much deeper into Donny’s early life as well as his work with David, is available on the official David Bowie YouTube channel, with a link in our show notes.
(The musical excerpts heard in the interview are from Donny McCaslin’s album Lullaby for the Lost)
Dig Deeper
• Visit Donny McCaslin at donnymccaslin.com and follow him on Bluesky, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
• Purchase Lullaby for the Lost from Edition Records, Bandcamp, or Qobuz and listen on your streaming platform of choice
Key Collaborators:
• Tim Lefebvre, bassist and producer
• Jason Lindner, keyboardist
• Ben Monder, guitarist
• Mark Guiliana, drummer
• Zach Danziger, drummer
• Jonathan Maron, bassist
• Nate Wood, drummer
Producers and Mixing Engineers:
• David Fridmann - Producer (The Flaming Lips, MGMT)
• Gail Ann Dorsey - Bowie collaborator and Blackstar Symphony vocalist
David Bowie and Blackstar Legacy:
• Lawrence Peryer Interviews Donny McCaslin Live From Bowie75
• David Bowie - Blackstar (McCaslin’s pivotal collaboration)
• David Bowie - “Sue (Or in a Season of Crime)” (early McCaslin collaboration)
• Blackstar Symphony tour dates and venues
• Mike Garson - Bowie pianist continuing the legacy
(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)
Lawrence Peryer: The last time we sat down was in New York at the Bowie 75 store, and it was in early 2022. We were all kind of still emerging from COVID. You were just on the cusp of firing back up. You had started to do some collaborations again, but you hadn't really hit the road yet, if I remember correctly. And now you've got so much happening.
New album, the Blackstar Symphony, the EP. I'm curious, when you juggle projects at this scale, how do you maintain creative focus between them? Are there connective threads, and do they relate to each other, the projects? Or are you just in tunnels?
Donny McCaslin: I would say that I do tend to focus on one thing at a time. For example, when I'm working on a record, trying to fine-tune the songs or the orchestration, or later on, if it's the mix, the production choices and options and going through all that stuff, I tend to get pretty obsessed and pretty deep in each thing as I go along.
With the Blackstar Symphony, for example, there was a long period of that happening at the beginning, when it was the gestation period of choosing who was going to orchestrate which song, how many notes do I give, what direction, all those kinds of things. That was, and then leading up to the first few performances, that was a lot of totally focused, all-in kind of work.
Part of what I like about that is it engages my creative imagination more deeply. An example would be, let's say I'm working on a song for the Blackstar Symphony, and then, put it down, dinner, family, whatever, and then I can tell my unconscious—sometimes the ideas are churning around. And then the next morning it's like, "Oh, well what if on 'Heroes,' we did this instead?" It's not something that I did in my kind of allotted practice time, but something that, because I was in that headspace and thinking about it and just letting it roam around in the creative unconscious, there was work being done that was really beneficial.
But I can only get in that headspace when I'm immersed in the music, if that makes sense, or inside a project. Lately I was working a lot on this new record and there were Blackstar Symphony gigs happening, but I was able to carve out, okay, we've got San Francisco in a couple of weeks. So at the ten-day mark, I set aside the other stuff and I start getting all the way back into that music again and thinking about every single detail, just trying to get deeper into the orchestra parts and all the details and what have you.
That's how it tends to work for me. So in a period now where there's a lot going on, I just have to be judicious about how I spend my time and what I work on. I'm currently trying to finish music for this project I'm doing with the Danish Radio Big Band in late October. So I was on vacation recently, but I came up with Jochen Neuffer, who's conducting and arranging, about the song form. So I had to sort of get back into it and I was, I could tell I was just checking in on Sibelius and playing the thing a few times, and then I was letting myself just think about it throughout the day, even though I'm supposed to be on vacation. And eventually the answers materialized, but I need to be in it and I need to be engaged for those answers to materialize.
Lawrence: I hadn't intended to ask this question, but when you mentioned the way maybe a song like "Heroes" might evolve or change or you might have a new inspiration for the arrangement or what have you—is the repertoire for the Blackstar Symphony fixed, or are you swapping music in and out? Is it a living, breathing organism?
Donny: That's a good question. The material with the orchestra is fixed. I mean, we do have a couple extra—I can't remember, two, three extra songs that we could swap in and out theoretically. But we found a really good flow for the show. And so far it's been only in the United States that we perform this; there's always a time limit when you're with unions and whatnot. So if you're going to do the show in one fell swoop, you have an eighty-five-, ninety-minute limit, let's say. So we've kind of got music that gets us right to the edge of that limit. (laughter) So as much as I—interesting you asked that because there was the song "No Plan." We, that's one that we have ready for orchestra and I listened to it the other day after two years of not checking it out and I just love the arrangement, I love the song, and I'm just hoping that we get a chance, probably when this goes to Europe, we'll have more time available. We can start swapping things out.
But all that to say, the orchestra stuff is fixed. However, I'm still tweaking things. On "Heroes," it was like, okay, we had a certain approach we took at the beginning, but okay, now let's kind of get more of this particular line from the original song in there. And we're still refining the orchestra arrangements, I would say, but then the encore are wide open because that's just band and singers. So that's evolved, and we have swapped tunes in and out to your question. And we are continuing to do that. Like our next concert is in Denver, October 9th. I have a new song that we're going to add to the encore list and thinking about how to present it and all that.
Lawrence: Nice. All right. I have some more questions about the same thing, but I'll come back to that a little later. I want to pivot to Lullaby for the Lost. Reading the material that I received in advance—it's noteworthy in terms of if you're coming at it from a jazz listener or even a jazz critic, to hear about the various influences that you bring to the table. It's this really interesting mix of name-checks that obviously one wouldn't think of even in the context of like a jazz fusion project, but for you, I don't really perceive that as that unusual. Part of it being a listener for a long time of your music, but also having the privilege of talking to you about the different music you grew up listening to.
You were not a one-track-mind kind of listener, it seems like. I remember back in New York we talked about AC/DC and all the music that kids grew up on in the eighties. (laughter) You weren't immune to the infectious disease of classic rock. And I'm wondering—could you talk a little bit about, and I think it's a theme in a lot of what you do, which is that intersection of legacy and tradition and honor and innovation? Could you talk a little bit about that and the specifics of this album, this sort of over-embrace of other influences?
Donny: Sure. The first thing I think of is that this band I've had for many years—Tim Lefebvre, Jason Lindner, Nate Wood, Zach Danziger, Jonathan Maron on bass. We've been playing together for a long time, and when Mark Guiliana was doing it, I remember I would describe it as we're exploring the intersection of improvisation and ambient drum and bass, electronic music, all from our own perspective.
And that's evolved. I think we've obviously, going through the Blackstar experience was a transformative experience for me personally and I think for all the guys. But we've continued to evolve and our influences, we continue to be influenced by each other. So all that to say, there was a point where Tim Lefebvre showed me the Neil Young video from Saturday Night Live playing "Rockin' in the Free World" with Charlie Drayton and, I'm just forgetting the names of the two other guys. It's just so primal.
Lawrence: It's unhinged.
Donny: It's unhinged and so primal. And I remember that moment. I was just sort of gobsmacked, like, this is so killing. And it sort of speaks to the energy that we play with when we get on stage together or what we strive for. Sometimes there's like a punk element about it. So I kept coming back to that as a reference point when I was imagining the writing.
I wanted to write a song that reflected how I felt about that performance. And that ended up being the song "Wasteland," which is the first, you know, Lullaby for the Lost. And then it was a deeper dive into Neil Young and I really was into the record that Daniel Lanois produced, Le Noise. So actually "Lullaby for the Lost," that song is a direct, again, sort of my creative unconscious sort of processing Le Noise. And that's what came up for me was "Lullaby for the Lost." And Nine Inch Nails, of course, and that's another one that's been important for Tim and myself. And I was really into the Halsey record that Trent and Atticus produced, If I Can't Have Love, I Want Power. That's really the vibe behind the song "Stately," which is this ballad. I have to say I was ruminating on the sort of the production and songwriting that Trent and Atticus brought to that record. That to me was, it's just sort of captivated my creative imagination.
So those are a few examples and what happens is obviously I'm coming from the jazz tradition, and I guess that I just try, I just open myself to see how it's going to unfold in the way that feels like it has conviction and authenticity. I just sort of follow the spirit in those moments when we're in the studio or when I'm writing these songs. I mean, I think when I was younger, that would be the voice of like, you should try to do something that's a little hipper, more notes or odd meters or, just throwing out a couple examples of that voice of the oppressor that sometimes tells you you're not doing well enough, you're not doing something that's hip enough and is not going to get enough affirmation from whatever community or crowd. And I've wrestled with that over the years and I think now, for a long time now, I felt really just convicted of following my instinct, following the map, even if I don't know where it's going.
I have these folks with me, who are such great musicians—the guys I mentioned earlier who also contribute so much to how this music has developed and how some of these songs come to life. Like "Glitch," for example. That was us at a soundcheck. Essentially jamming, me just turning record on and just riding the wave as it were. And that's some of the sheer language that comes up in soundchecks when we're just improvising. And it's Tim creating a sound, Jason, the same thing. Me messing with my sounds and we're all just sort of in a playpen together.
I had the fortune to do some touring with Victor Lewis, the great Victor Lewis, great drummer and composer, and not too long ago, even in the last couple years. And he's a master musician. It goes without saying, but also just a storyteller about his life and music and his story and his journey and the myriad of people he has played with, from David Sanborn to everybody under the sun. When we're together playing with Victor, he'll sometimes say, "This is team ball." Team ball, and he'll really emphasize that. And I'm like, yes. That's what I believe in, and that's what I'm trying to describe to you about the creative process with the band.
It's team ball. On this record, I guess ultimately I wrote most of the songs, but a couple were co-writes with Tim. One with Jason and Tim, and those came out of these moments of what we're all creating together. And then when we get into recording, they're all such creative people and Jason brings this sort of huge sonic, creative imagination and malleability. So he's adding layers on layers. He's a wizard and it's not things I'm dictating, "Hey, can you use patch P37?" There's none of that. I'm just like, "Yeah, do your thing."
And same with Tim. Tim produced the record and did such a great job and he was adding a lot of synths and guitar. So it's really a team effort and the team has built, I feel like, more and more momentum over the years, and it's really reflected on this record.
Lawrence: I want to ask you a little bit about the evolution of your sort of creative partnership with Tim and where it's at at this point with this record. But before I get there, what I wanted to ask first was, is there ever a point in a project like this where you're laying down tracks, you're working on it—do you ever have to stop and say, "I have to let this go in this direction?" Like, do you ever have to decide, "Should I let this be this out there? Or should I rein it in? Should I be more commercial?" Like, what happens for you?
Donny: That's a great question. And there are those moments. I'll start with I Want More, which is the record you referenced earlier, coming out of COVID. And that was a record that was mixed by David Fridmann and I would say produced by David Fridmann. And the song "Body Blow," which is this real drum and bass thing. So we had done our recording, overdubbing. So we presented him with like, "Okay, here's all the elements." And he really took it to another place in terms of the aesthetic. And it's so, I don't know what the word—bold. It's so progressive. It's so in your face. It's not like easy listening, but it's very, it's intense and it's, and I love it, but it was one of those moments where I was listening to it and I was like, "Holy shit, this is incredible. I love this, but it's also a little scary."
Lawrence: "What have I done?" (laughter)
Donny: You know, and who's going to listen to this? And not who's going to listen to this, but like, is this going to put me in less of a place of whatever in the business or in terms of booking and all that stuff. All those things can cross my mind. But he wove such a deep tapestry with that track, and I was uncomfortable with a couple of the things. I mean, you can't, I can't even think of a specific example, but—
Lawrence: What do you mean uncomfortable?
Donny: I mean, like, with the sound, like, wow, let's say hypothetically, the drums are really in front or like this low. There's so much distortion. I'm not used to it, but I think I would just ruminate on it. I got him involved for a reason and because I didn't want to sound like a jazz guy trying to do this, I wanted to make it sound like that. He had never mixed a jazz record before, much less produced one. So really, he was coming from a different perspective, and I had to let go. And ultimately I love it, but I had to, it's a different aesthetic, like the drums are so much more in front.
I was listening to The Police the other day, for example. It's like Stewart Copeland is right there. In jazz, it's decades of me being used to saxophone, trumpet being right in front and right out there. But as you know, with other types of music, sometimes the vocal, which is really the role that I'm playing, is a little tucked in. So everything else sounds bigger, but there's an emotional reaction to that. Sometimes when I'm listening and I'm like, "I'm scared because I'm used to what I grew up with and now," but I'm reaching for something different and I have to let go of where I came from in order to go to where I'm going. And so it is fraught at moments, but ultimately I trust and I ask for what I need. I mean, there's on "Stria," which is another song on that record, I was like, "Okay, this actually needs to be louder and fuller." So I do, but I'm balancing all these things. The trust with who I'm working with, the trust with the team, playing it for the people who are in the band. "What do you think of this? Is this—" getting their feedback and then ultimately going with my gut.
Lawrence: So I think that dovetails really nicely into a discussion of your relationship with Tim. I don't even know how to contextualize it except to say longtime band member and collaborator, at least on stage, and now taking a much more prominent role in the crafting of the album. And I'm really curious about how that comes about and how. I mean that strikes me as a fairly—not risky proposition, but it could be fraught. It's like this is somebody you've worked with a long time. It almost, it needs to work. (laughter)
Donny: No, you're absolutely right, like sort of the quick—I'll give you the quick version and the longer version, but it happened organically basically, and all of those thoughts came through. "How is this going to change our relationship? Is it—" but the truth is, it's been really seamless and really it's felt great. And it started with this track called "Kid," which we actually recorded for the I Want More sessions.
Lawrence: Oh, that's a good one.
Donny: We hit a, I guess—it was a co-write. Me and Tim wrote that together. I think for a while we were looking for like a vocalist to make a vocal version of that tune or whatever. Just in other words, for a variety of reasons, it just kind of sat on the back burner. Then we picked it up again. We finished it, we sent it to Dave Fridmann, who delivered a stellar mix and his production aesthetic, which was incredible. And it was that moment that I thought, "This is my—this is the direction I want to go in for my new record." There's more of a guitar presence on "Kid," stripped down. It was just an intuitive moment for me where I felt the clarity, "Okay, this is my next direction," so to speak.
And so then Lullaby for the Lost happened and it just sort of spilled out organically as I mentioned. And what was nice is we were on the road together and so we had multiple meetings, and with Jason too, Jason was involved, where we just sort of talked down the songs, the forms. Jason said, "Why don't you add a bridge melody here?" All those kinds of details we were able to work out together. And then we got in the studio—easy dynamic because we know each other well and all. And then he took the tracks with him as a producer does, and did a lot. And it's all worked out really seamlessly. And I think to his credit, he's able to hear my feedback with no problem.
And we had a lot of, the communication has been great and so I value that he needs—he's able to and wants to hear what I have to say and is, and was open to me calling at all hours to talk about the littlest of details. But I guess also we really have a shared aesthetic that I think enables the seamlessness I'm talking about because it just felt like we both knew when things were right and for the most part agreed on almost every move that was made. Maybe it was here and there a couple things that we didn't totally agree on, but that wasn't a hard discussion. And ultimately he was, he said, "It's your call. You're the artist." And I appreciate that. But I also really was like, "Do your thing. Do your thing." Because I trusted that, I trusted in our shared aesthetic. And it shows on the record. It's very, it's team ball. (laughter)
Lawrence: Yeah, it's team ball. There you go, man. Nice callback. Yeah. When we sat in New York you were talking a little bit about David Fridmann. I think you had said to me that he had suggested to you that you start to explore electronic manipulation of your instrument. And if you don't mind me saying it this way, a lot of the artists he worked with from the rock and pop world, even when he is doing something incredibly mainstream, like MGMT—certainly Flaming Lips or Mercury Rev—there's, he's drawn to a certain eccentricity. And or I don't know if he brings it or if he's drawn to it or the two eccentrics meet somewhere in the middle. But do you know why he wanted to work with you or why he said yes to working with you? I'm so curious about that.
Donny: Well, good question. So I'll just, one clarification note was it was actually David Bowie, who, what I remember said to me, "I think what I hear for your future," and I'm paraphrasing here, but "is you experimenting with manipulating the saxophone sound live and seeing where that takes you." So that was Bowie, and there actually, after he said that, there was still a year or two where I didn't start using electronics, and then I did and everything progressed from there.
So David Fridmann. Actually, there's another record coming out in spring of next year on a Canadian label called We Are Busy Bodies, and it's a collaborative project between Ryan Dahle, who's a great singer-songwriter, producer, mixer in Vancouver, and myself and a lot of my band. We've been working on this for a long time. Like I met him through my manager Steven Saporta, and I met him when we were doing the Blow record, and Ryan and I struck up a friendship, a relationship, and the idea for this record came out. So, long story short, we've been working on this for some years and the initial reach out to David Fridmann was, "Would he mix some of that record?" That's where it started.
Lawrence: Amazing.
Donny: And he mixed a song, which will come out early next year, and I loved it, I loved the mix so much. And then he mixed a few more of that project. And then I was sitting on the I Want More sessions with the question of who to get to mix this. That's when I asked Dave. And he was into it and I don't, I guess I don't know why he decided to say yes. But he did and it's been a tremendous partnership.
If I could use that word. I mean, he just, the way he manipulates the saxophone, production-wise, has helped inform my choices on the live gigs. And he just does things that I wouldn't have imagined sometimes, and I really appreciate that.
Lawrence: Gotcha.
Donny: And he'll send a mix back and basically say like, "I threw the kitchen sink at this, and I can dial it back if you need me to," but referencing "Body Blow" again, that's the one where he kind of just totally went for it and it's so provocative, but yet it's a real work of art.
Or another song on that record, "Fly My Spaceship," the bass is so out front. And I remember another—just to harken back to your earlier question. I remember feeling like, "Whoa, that's so much bass. Is it too much?" And he was like, "I was going for a Goldie vibe." And I was like, "Oh yeah. Oh, okay." And then now I listen to it now and I can't imagine it another way, but in the moment, coming from where I came from, I was like, "Well, maybe the saxophone should be louder." But it all worked out.
Lawrence: Going back in time a little bit, even to Stadium Jazz through something like "'Tis a Pity She Was a Whore" on Blackstar and certainly some, the thread continues on a lot of Lullaby for the Lost and even into the symphony show that I saw. There's this feeling of right up to the edge of chaos. Not chaos, not total freeing out, but like, harnessing the energy of that and taking it right before it all kind of explodes or implodes. So it's like this structure meets room for improvisation. And then the symphony show I saw there was a lot of joy, a lot of joy was coming from that stage. Even, I find it very—I don't want to say difficult but powerful to listen to that music still and, I've seen a bunch of the former band members in various configurations do their thing, whether it's Garson's touring thing or what you were doing, what you are doing, other variations as well. It's just to hear those songs now is profound.
More broadly, how are all those elements—the sense of controlled chaos, the structure versus freedom, the joy. How do, like, how intentional—do you think about those as elements or guiding principles or ingredients?
Donny: I think it's an intuitive thing on my part, because I just try to play with as much emotional authenticity as possible at all times and really serve the moment and give myself over to the moment. I think also, I'm mindful that these chances to be on stage that I'm grateful for the opportunity and I want to really be present in the music as I was just describing, but also to try to enjoy, to realize what a privilege it is to be on the stage with the Seattle Symphony Orchestra playing this music that's so meaningful to me. Like it's really, it's really a dream come true. And yes, there's a lot going on and I'm, the mix and all, there's all that stuff happening. But also just to be present and grateful that I have the opportunity to express myself through the music, to tell my story, whatever context that is in and in front of an audience and to be able to, it's really a gift to be able to do something like that. And I never want to take it for granted. And I want to show up for it every time and give the audience everything that I can, because I think that's what is supposed to happen when you're in those moments and you have the privilege of being on that stage. You've got to deliver to the very best of your ability. So I always strive for that.
And then those things that you described, the joy that can, that's all coming—part of that of course is just sort of my story that comes out through the music and it's in the frame, maybe anticipating "'Tis a Pity She Was a Whore," and in that song, it's just such a banger of a song and it calls for that. It calls for on-the-edge kind of playing. And I think we talked about this in New York a few years ago, but it was the first take and I was playing so hard that like I squeaked or something happened. Mark dropped one of his drumsticks and we were listening back and I remember both Mark and I saying like, "Man, we'd really like to do another take." We felt like it got off the rails. And we did another one or two. But David loved that energy of the first one, that really raw, primal kind of thing. Primal. He really loved that. And that's what that song is. So I like to bring that kind of conviction in whatever I do.
Lawrence: I think it was off mic that night we first talked about the Blackstar Symphony, and you weren't able to really talk too much about it yet, but you were alluding to a project that was in the, I don't know if it was production or pre-production or even incubation stage. When we were on stage, you talked about this feeling of, I'm going to kind of badly paraphrase you, so if I get it wrong, just virtually hit me, but that you had like a, because I think I was asking you about your live presentation of some of the songs, and I think we talked a little bit about if there had been any discussions of touring it with David or doing a couple of shows in New York where the conversation went was that you expressed this almost protective feeling about that music and being careful about how it might be presented live in David's absence. And I'm curious what made Blackstar Symphony, what makes that approach feel right and okay.
Donny: I'm happy to speak to that. So what happened was I was in Europe doing a project with a Metropol Orchestra, Jules Buckley conductor, and it was a bunch of music of mine from Blow, some other tunes. And then "Let's do a couple of Bowie tunes." So "Look Back in Anger" was one, and "Warszawa" was another one. And those are two of my favorite Bowie tunes. So prior to that, I had always felt like, besides us playing some instrumental versions of things, I just didn't really have any interest in doing it for the reasons you mentioned. I felt really protective of how special that experience was and I didn't want to, I didn't want to do anything that wasn't of the highest artistic integrity. I think David deserves that.
I was at dinner though with Jules after rehearsal, and I got to tell you, "Warszawa" sounded like a million fucking bucks, man. It was so beautiful with the studio orchestra, which is a big band plus full orchestra. So I can't tell you how many people it is. I should be able to give you a number, but it's a lot. And Tim Davies did the orchestration. It was just so beautiful and compelling. I thought, that would be a way to do Blackstar that would give it the artistic integrity that it deserves. And Jules was like, "Right on." (laughter) That's how it started. He was really my co-conspirator. I mean, we told my manager and it grew from there. But that's where it started. It was this sense of like, "This is a way that we could do that music, that not only has the DNA from the record, but allows the opportunity to create something new, to push it in some different directions that would make it feel like a new piece of art as opposed to just a note-by-note replication of the record," which wouldn't happen anyway because there's improvising on the record, which changes from performance to performance as you know. But like, there's some spots on the symphony gig where it really goes into some different places. And I think that's, that felt worthy, that's something that David would be into.
Gail Ann Dorsey is one of the centerpieces of this project.
Lawrence: Her presence adds so much.
Donny: Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. And so there were various moments in this gestation process where I would call her and be like, "Okay, what do you think of this? Listen to the—" because she was with David for so long and she was my teammate and, me running things by her. And her response was always like, "He would love this. This is something he would absolutely love. This is the right way to do this." And so that helped, obviously, was affirming. Can you hear that from her at various points? And it just kept going to where it is now. And even I know you saw it in Seattle, boy, I wish, I hope there's another time for you to see it because I feel like it's really grown so much. And that's part of what makes it exciting to keep doing it. Yes, it's the same songs with the symphony, but a lot of the detail has changed and continues to grow and evolve and that's exciting. We're not just doing this, this continues to grow and feels like it's getting deeper and deeper and there's so much joy in it.
And a lot of that is coming from the audience too, who I think are so happy to hear the record live and to hear Gail and John and David Poe. But it's really a profoundly special experience to step on the stage to do that because it's just such a grand thing with the eighty-five-piece orchestra and the band singers. It's really—we just did a couple nights at Davies Hall in San Francisco and it was transcendent. It was so great.
Lawrence: Well, let me ask you this and then I'll move on—without naming names, if you're not comfortable doing so, what's your experience of the different symphonies? Are there some that bring more enthusiasm? Or if not enthusiasm, can you get different flavors from different symphonies?
Donny: Yeah. We do. I mean, some stand out as being very high level. I mean, sometimes you notice that a little bit and then there's some people who are more enthusiastic about what we're doing than others. And that doesn't necessarily correlate with the different musical idiosyncrasies of the different orchestras. But some people are really into it. And some, there's people probably in the middle and there's probably people who don't really love the project because it's louder than obviously a typical show, but we've taken great care to really minimize the stage volume and it's gotten better and better as we've gone. We're able to keep it a lot quieter now to integrate all the elements. So I explain to all of them at the beginning of the rehearsal, like, this project is at its zenith when the audience can really hear the orchestra and the band and the singers and that the writing is intentional and inclusive of the orchestra. They're not just playing whole notes behind us. Like they're very involved. There's a lot of shit happening. And so, generally speaking, it's been a really great level all through. But it's a different dynamic. Some people are, some vibes are warmer than others. That's just the way it is. (laughter)
Lawrence: That's just the way it is. The title Lullaby for the Lost. There's something—lullaby to me conjures tenderness, and there's also some melancholy in there around both the word lullaby and the lost and. Without asking you to reveal anything that you are not comfortable revealing in a public forum, what does the title mean to you?
Donny: I think it has multiple meanings. It's one of those things that, like the two things you just described, melancholy and tenderness, that's part of it, part of the emotional feeling that it's coming from. So I think it's one of those things. You could look at world events now, or you could, I could look at a period of my life or, it can be applied to different things. But ultimately it felt like the right title to leave room for people to imagine if there's a literal meaning, or if it's more of a global thing.
Or, and to me it's a little bit of, there's a little, I could apply it to a literal thing in my life kind of thing, or a period in my life. And I could also look at it in just different ways of looking at it. But it felt like it captured the spirit of the music, which there is melancholy in there. I mean, I think about the last—I listened to last night to "Mercy," which is the last track, and Ben Monder plays this intro, this soul intro that is fucking so beautiful, man. It's so beautiful, and then the melody happens, the song happens. And that song happened to be, the spirit of that was just a meditation on the sort of ongoing tragic events of the Middle East that we're all witnessing and emotional response around that. And so that's one sort of meaning, but then there's also this punk energy too that's in there. (laughter) So it's, and it's all part of it. And maybe that's kind of a vague answer, but that's what I got for you.
Lawrence: Two other quick things. I'm curious if, at this stage of your artistic life and career, could you envision an acoustic trio or a configuration of what you do or a presentation, either an album or a presentation—like does that interest you or are you full into this progressive mode?
Donny: I mean, actually I've been doing—the quick answer is yes, because I love acoustic music and I've been doing a project about once a year, either at the Village Vanguard, or most recently at Birdland here in New York. That's an acoustic group with Gregoire Maret on harmonica, Scott Colley on acoustic bass, Jonathan Blake on drums, Ben Monder on electric guitar. They're incredible. So I have a whole set, a whole program, I guess, set of music for that group. So I could see recording that, touring that. It could definitely happen. It just, the stars haven't aligned yet, but—
Lawrence: I've got to come out for that man. Wow.
Donny: It would always be an honor to have you there, man.
Lawrence: I would, if I could take you into the studio, I would love to take you in with a trio and no other harmonic instruments because there's so much I hear—you allow so much for your other collaborators when you have a larger band. I would love to see you in a context with no other harmonic instruments.
Donny: Thanks. It could happen. I mean, I did a gig recently with Scott's group, Scott Colley and Tom Rainey on drums, and I was playing of course. And then, there's something coming up in September with Jonathan Blake's trio with me, and I don't know, he was playing bass actually. But so it's that, that is a world that I still live in. It's just not as publicized.
Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. I get it. So the last thing, I don't remember if I told you this in any of our conversations, on or off mic—when I first heard Blackstar, I heard it in, I guess, what I'll call the business context. I was asked to do the thing that so many people do, I signed the NDA and I went down to the office and I sat with Bill and Coco and they played the record for me at a volume that was just loud enough that we couldn't talk. We had to really sit there and listen to it. And we listened to it all the way through. They, after it ran through the first time, one of them said, "What do you think?" And I said two things. One of which I wish I could take back. "If this is David's last record, he never needs to make another record." And of course, I didn't know what was going on at the time, but the other thing I said was, "This is an entirely new kind of music. Like I don't even know what to call this music." I've thought about that a lot in the context of your own music. So I come to think of you because I mean, I loved the album title Stadium Jazz. (laughter) Like, to me, that's like the best thing I've ever heard. It's funny. It's got a lot going on. But I think about that when I was listening to Lullaby for the Lost, I was like, "Oh, it's some of that Donny McCaslin Stadium Jazz." (laughter) And I guess I don't really have a question for you there, but you're, so there isn't a tradition for what you do necessarily.
Donny: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, it's hard to, if somebody asks me, "Well, how do you describe Lullaby for the Lost?" it's hard because it's this hybrid of these influences that we've talked about today. I'm coming from the jazz tradition, whatever, but also had this really open DNA of what I was into as a kid, as you know, from Santa Cruz and reggae and this and that. And then just the way things have played out and now it's really these influences on the record as we talked about—Neil Young. I'm not like a Neil Young aficionado. I don't really know his discography. It's just these few things that I got really into that had a direct result into these tunes. A couple of the tunes and we talked about Nine Inch Nails, but there's also this kind of Rage Against the Machine vibe. "KID" has kind of a Police thing. Like there's, I can find those influences, but of course, it's all mixed in with the language that we've already created and experiences that we've had. So it is hard, but that's also good because it means that we're onto something potentially new or different, and that's hard to do these days. And so I took that as a positive.
